In this episode, I interview Dr. Shirag Shemmassian of Shemmassian Academic Consulting to discuss his team’s successful approach to college admissions.
Transcription
Kamila
Hey college kids. Welcome back to my podcast to cares about college. Today’s interview is with Dr. Shirag Shemmassian of Shemmassian academic counseling. I’ll leave his information down below. Also make sure to subscribe and check out my blog college reality check. com. I hope you enjoy Hey, college kids, welcome back to my podcast who cares about college? Today’s episode is very special. I have Dr. chateaugay Amasian. So if you could introduce yourself.
Dr. Shirag
Hi, I’m Dr. Shemmassian, just like you said. So I help, you know, bright college students get into, you know, top medical schools. I also help high schoolers get into top colleges and Bs MD programs, just really enjoy, you know, helping students pursue their educational and career goals.
Kamila
So, the three topics that main subjects will talk about today is your team’s approach, because you guys have been very, very successful. So both undergraduate and medical school admissions. Number two is finding a passion at a young age. This is more directed towards undergraduates. And the number three since you do specialize in medical school admissions, we’ll also talk about the process to apply to medical school as well. Sure. So number one, from the very, very beginning for undergraduates, like high school is going into undergraduate. What age like number one, what age do you like, start preparing for the admissions process, like what age do people do people typically come to you asking for help? And number two, what is the first step that you and your team take to help this kid craft a good application to get into these top schools? Because you guys have been very, like 90%, it top three choices in these schools being like some of the most selective in the country? So can you answer those two? I guess? Parts of my question. Yeah.
Dr. Shirag
So. So we’re focusing on high schoolers applying to college.
Kamila
Yeah, first high school, and then we’ll go into medical school admission. Sounds
Dr. Shirag
great. Sounds great. So the earliest we began supporting students is at the tail end of eighth grade. Because I think that it’s really important for, you know, students to be able to pursue their interests and, you know, develop great study habits and all that kind of stuff during middle school. Because I know that the the moment people get into high school, they’re all you know, a lot of them especially high achievers really, really focus on college, right. And so I got to from the get go, I have to hit the runway, I have to get great grades, I have to, you know, do all these extracurriculars and so on they, they sort of joined that competitive atmosphere. And so I always like it, when students in seventh and eighth grade, you know, they’re a little bit, I guess, they’re a little bit buffered from that, right. And so but as soon as you know, eighth grade ends, and we’re thinking about summer, and all that kind of stuff, I think really like the high school years, and the college prep ears begin. And the earlier students start, the better because, you know, it really takes time to figure out what it is that you actually want to do, what communities you want to serve, what problems you want to solve. And we support students all throughout. So sometimes people come in, you know, at 11th grade, and they just want help with their applications. I think that’s great. The risk there is that well, what if they didn’t pursue things really meaningfully the three years prior? So I think by starting up sooner, we can figure out okay, we can try a lot of different things, see what you enjoy, see what you didn’t enjoy? How do we essentially niche down over time, I always think of this as like a funnel, where you start a little bit wider. And as you go through the process, you know, you ask yourself, well, what communities do I enjoy serving? What problems do I like to solve? When I like an activity? What about it? Do I like I think that’s a really key question. Because you can go in a bunch of different directions, depending on if you like, aspect a of something versus aspect B, and then guiding people every step of the way, that way.
Kamila
And so number one, do you guys start with like? So what do you tell? You said typically, like the tail end of eighth grade, right, entering into high school? What is the first thing that you tell your, like your students or the people coming in? What do you tell them to do? Do you tell them like, try a bunch of clubs, find what you’re interested in? Or do you tell them? I don’t know. Try this, this and this or plan out your entire, like high school classes up until senior year? So what is the first thing that you guys do? What is the first step you take?
Dr. Shirag
Yeah, I think so. There are a few things that happen in parallel in the beginning. So first things first, I want to do course planning. You know, when you’re in high when you’re starting in high school, it’s easy to get tracked very early. So if you do certain courses in ninth grade, then you’re eligible for certain other courses in 10th grade and then in 11th, grade and so on. So if you miss the boat early, you might be playing catch up or never catch up throughout your high school years. Right. And so we want to make sure okay, what are your actual college goals? And look, we specialize in Students are working with students who are looking to get into top 20, top 30 universities. And so we, you know, most of our students are focused on taking some of the toughest courses at their high school and their local community college and all this kind of stuff very a lot of high achievers. And so we want to make sure okay, what’s the course path here? Alright, when can you take certain courses? Is it just this one year it’s offered at your school? Or can you do it across multiple years, what prerequisites you have to take, and so on and so forth, had you supplement outside of school, things of this nature. And, but we also have to figure out what not to take, right? Because I think it’s very easy. I know, this was the case when I was in high school. And I think it’s only gotten more so this way, is you sort of look around, right, left and right, you’re like, oh, Jimmy’s taking this thing, you know, and China’s taking this other thing, and they’re really smart, maybe I need to take these. But it’s not necessarily the case that you have to take all of the challenging courses, because let’s say you’re looking to build a certain profile and you you’re devoting a lot of time to this really significant extracurricular, it might be the case that you don’t have to take as many AP courses as the next person and all this kind of thing. So of course, planning, I think is incredibly important. Next is going to be extracurricular activities. And this is where we actually spend the most time because it’s the most, it’s the most, I think, unknown and confusing, and takes the most creative effort to build up, you know, with courses, courses, our courses, once we, you know, help our students down the right path, you know, they’re obviously going to have to put in the work and we can assist them as far as you know, how to develop study schedules and things like this. But really, it’s the extracurricular is where you just like, you hear a million different things, and it’s very hard to do it well. Right. So when, back when I was applying to college, you know, many years ago, you know, not to date myself too much, but around like 20 years ago, right. And, and I know that the students we support today, their parents applied even before me, and, you know, the, the thing that you would always hear back then is be well rounded. Right. And so there was this thing about, like, you know, do all the different extracurriculars you can join Model UN do the science quizbowl joined the calf lawn, play sports, try to be the captain of everything you can, and then you know, you’ll get into some good schools, and that worked reasonably well. I mean, the ceiling wasn’t as high as it could be, but it was reasonable. But what ended up happening coming over time is that there are all these students who basically turned into president in the yearbook, President chess club, played volleyball, whatever. And then the schools are like, how am I supposed to tell these students apart? And then you had a group of students that were different in that they specialized in something, right. So they weren’t just someone who did a million different things at a pretty good level, but not a great level. But there are students who did a few things, and they did quite well. But then there was one or two areas where they were amazing, right? And so these, you know, I call specialists, other people call this developing a spike, or you know, a capstone project or different terms for this. And so this movement, you know, people started recognizing that this works. And then you started having a bunch of people who are like, well, I want to develop a specialty, I want to have a capstone project. But these are much harder to do than just joining a bunch of different clubs and being well rounded. So a lot of people do it wrong. Right? You get people who will say in junior year, like, Okay, I have one summer left, I want to work with you for a capstone project. I’m like, wait, wait, wait, like there’s, there’s a lot that had to happen beforehand, because maybe you’re not ready, maybe where your starting point is here. But to really finalize a an amazing spike, you you should be at this level. So how are we going to make up that gap as quickly as we can? How can we use that final summer? And and that’s the really key thing here. You know, so when we start younger with students, it’s not just like, oh, just join a bunch of stuff. Let’s see what happens. It’s not quite like that. Because usually the kid who really really loves science, they’re not also like, the person who’s obsessed with humanities or something like that. Right. So So then it’s like, okay, well, what competitions should you join? What should you not join? Should you do research with somebody? Should you not do research with somebody? What aspect of science do you like? Well, I really like teaching my peers about oh, so maybe it’s about bringing scientific concepts and communicating to laypeople. So maybe it’s about communicating to high schoolers and in effecting change in your, in your community that way. So by figuring out the general area you like to work in and the the reasons behind that enjoyment, we can basically tailor our recommendations to the few things they should explore, and the ones that they really love to run with it.
Kamila
Yeah, I’ve definitely heard of this like spike theory and just out of curiosity, what is like some of the more interesting spikes that you’ve heard, because the main subjects like science, math, engineering, you, you can definitely have spikes with those. There are definitely a lot of competitions and activities you can do with those. But are there were there any, like unique spikes that definitely were that students took to the next level, but weren’t really traditional? Did you ever have cases like that?
Dr. Shirag
Plenty? Yeah, I’ve seen it plenty of times. So a lot of you know, we’ve had students who, you know, I’ve observed students do a million different things. It’s almost like, Have I seen any, it’s like, yes, so many, which one do I bring up? So let me I’ll, I’ll highlight some that just jumped to mind. So you know, I’ve known students who, you know, they’re really interested in marine biology and also the environment. And so they lived in a coastal area. And they were observing that they’re Koestler had a problem with a lot of pollution and, you know, preservation and things of this nature. And so not only did they join forces with a, you know, local universities researcher, and join their lab and have publications, as far as, you know, the making sure that we’re protecting our, you know, our beaches, and all that kind of stuff, and those ecosystems, and, you know, publishing papers around that, but then also develop educational programs for the community, and also work with local policymakers to, you know, to develop laws and pass laws, were, you know, they would protect that and essentially had conservation projects. So that’s the kind of thing where, you know, the student could have done a million different things, but they decided, essentially, to use all of their extra curricular time to develop a program like this. Right. I’ve also known other students who will, you know, if they’re really interested in health care, you know, they’ve, they’ve developed programs, where they were developing, you know, our projects for kids who were, you know, at the, in the oncology department, and had cancer and all this kind of stuff, essentially, programs to help, you know, students or, you know, children cope with this kind of thing to involve family members, and then built a network of this thing across hospitals in their in their greater region. I’ve, I’ve seen so many such examples, but I hope that, you know, highlights, you know, how you can make this happen.
Kamila
And I definitely want to get into finding a passion. But I want to answer a few more questions before we get into that. Yep. So were there ever cases where you worked with a student and they had the stellar grades and they were working hard to develop this, your capstone or the spike? And you were sure, like, Oh, yes, this student is like many other students, and they’ll definitely get into one of their top choices. But they ended up they ended up not getting into their top choices. Did you ever have cases like that, where you were like, I’m 100%? Sure the student is going to get into one of their top choices, but they didn’t.
Dr. Shirag
So here’s the thing, like, no one can ever be 100% sure of this kind of stuff. Right? And we’re, you know, I can I can let students know, when I’m optimistic about their chances of getting into schools at a certain tier. I can never say 100%. You can also never predict which exact school. So let’s say for instance, someone’s applying to Harvard, Princeton and Yale. You know, you can’t say, well, pretty sure you’re going to get into Princeton, but not Harvard. And yeah, right there, there is some, I don’t want to call it randomness, but there’s uncertainty about which specific ones you might be competitive for certainty, I could tell someone if I don’t think they’re competitive for schools at that tier. But if they’re competitive at that tier, which specific one that’s very difficult to pinpoint. Now, obviously, by writing great supplemental essays and demonstrating fit and interest, and, you know, pursue developing the kind of profile that that type of school is looking for can increase your odds. So you know, and you know, this past cycle was especially difficult, I’m talking about the 2020 to 2021. We can call it the pandemic cycle, whatever you want to call it, because, you know, schools got a record number of applications. There were also most of those top schools went test optional. And so there were a lot of students who applied to these places that wouldn’t have otherwise. And students who have great test scores that might have not been considered as much, right. So it was even it was tougher than ever, and acceptance rates, just to put it in context. They’re really, really low now. So I believe it was like four of the eight Ivy League schools had 5% or lower acceptance rate. Yes, it was incredibly difficult. Right. So in other words, you know, if a student doesn’t get into one particular school, I’m never shocked. Because, you know, imagine if it’s like a 4% acceptance rate, that means it’s 96% aren’t getting in. Right and and it’s this is not just a random collection of people who have Apply there high achievers who apply, and only 4% of them get in. So it’s very hard if in any other area of life, I told you coming on, you know, there’s a, there’s a 4% chance of this thing happening of it raining today or whatever, you wouldn’t say, pretty confident it’s gonna rain today. Right? But when we think about college, you know, the, the numbers, the numbers are more difficult to process, I think because it’s something we’re so emotionally invested in. We’ve worked so hard towards and, you know, we, you know, we want to believe that, oh, if I just put in x amount of work and achieve y results, then I should be reasonably assured of, you know, getting into this place. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee about it. So I never shocks me when you know, when a student doesn’t get into this one particular school.
Kamila
Yeah, right. We forget 4% Get in, but 96%. Correct. Very true. Okay. And one more thing I want to go into before we talk about, like, because you do work with admissions officers, like some of your consultants, our admissions officers, so I want to get their perspective on it as well. But one more thing. So for extra, not like we are type extracurriculars, but for like essays, what piece of advice would you give for essays just like a something in general?
Dr. Shirag
Yeah, the the topic does not make or break your essay. I see so many students who are really obsessed with getting the topic, right, right. If I write about, you know, Lebanese cooking, that is not a good idea. Well, I don’t know, you can write a terrible essay about Lebanese cooking, you can write an amazing essay about Lebanese cooking. So I think that it’s always important for students reflect on the on the following question. What’s the point? And I don’t mean, what’s the point? Like? What’s the point of that no more. So like, what is your intended message? First and foremost? What qualities do you want to communicate? What aspects of your background or personality would be impossible to learn from just reading your resume? Right, or your activities list? Those are the questions we have to ask. Because the stories we choose to talk about, and the stories we choose not to talk about, should be directly related to what the point of my essay is. So we see you know, a few years back, you know, we saw this essay that the Costco essay and they went viral, you know, about like, oh, my gosh, you know, the Costco essay. And then I had a lot of parents asking me, Well, can you help my kid write an essay, like the Costco essay? Well, that’s the whole point, right? Like for that student at work, because it was talking about their, their development, their personality, their maturation process. It wasn’t about Costco. Right? They used Costco to talk about that. But it wasn’t about Costco, right, or any other store. And so I think it’s always critical to get, you know, figure out the why, why are you using Casca? What’s the point of delivering it in this way? And so long as that works, then you’re onto something good, but never think like, Oh, I’ve heard music is cliche, I shouldn’t write about it. Or I heard, you know, spending time with my grandmother is played out. So I shouldn’t write about it. I think people make too many decisions based on what they believe is cliche, or original, or what somebody else wants to hear versus focusing on what is the theme of my application? And how does this essay fit with that?
Kamila
And for the different components of application? I’ll say like, probably grades and test scores, extracurriculars, essays, letters of rec, like those being the main categories, do you think minus the grades, we know the grades have to be pretty good. But the other components? Do you think there are certain ones that are more important than others? Like admissions officers weigh in their mind more than others?
Dr. Shirag
I think they’re all critical. It and it’s very vary so much from school to school, like when it comes to essays, you know, people give estimates anywhere from 10 to 30%.
Dr. Shirag
Of like, how much it weighs in?
Dr. Shirag
Mm hmm. Yeah. And so and then grades are obviously a big chunk and extracurricular but can’t but it goes hand in hand, right? Like, you can work your tail off for years towards your extracurriculars. But if you can’t communicate your background effectively, it kinda doesn’t matter. It’s like having the perfect like making building the perfect product. Maybe you have the world’s best hair dryer, but no one knows about it, or you’re like or the way you advertise it is. Here’s a hairdryer. It’s pretty good. Right? No one’s gonna be excited about buying it, even though it might be the world’s best hairdryer. Right? And so you have to think about the way you deliver it. So yeah, I mean, at the same time, it’s If you don’t have, so if you don’t have the grades, like the foundation of your application is weak, if you don’t have strong extracurriculars, even if you write beautifully, it’s built on weak foundation. So I think that it’s sort of like, you know, you remember, like, almost like the food pyramid, like you have to have that foundational grades, and then you have to have the extracurriculars and other people have to, you know, be able to vouch for you through your rec letters. And then you have to be able to deliver your motivations, your qualities, you know, all the stuff that we couldn’t learn so, so they’re all important in sort of shaping that shaping that story. So, you know, you don’t want to have emptiness under, like behind your story. So so long as your background is well, like what you say about yourself as well supported by everything else that you’ve done, and by what others are saying about you, then you’re gonna be in solid shape.
Kamila
And another thing I want to get into, and this is kind of going to admissions officers, and we’re talking about in the context of top schools, many top schools not even top schools, like moderately selective schools are saying they have this like holistic admissions process, which means that they look at every part, if they see something they don’t like, that doesn’t mean they’re just gonna throw away your application. However, if you’re not one of those special cases, like you’re not an athlete, you’re you don’t have some some like hook, you’re just an average applicant, you may have a spike, but you’re just still an average applicant. When you’re applying to these top schools, if your grades don’t meet the average, if your LSAT score is a little behind, or yet it’s like behind, or it’s definitely not near like the 50th percentile, they say holistic, but in reality, is that kid really going to get in if their grades don’t match? The expectations of the school?
Dr. Shirag
Loaded question, right? There are, there are so many layers to this. And I’ll and I’ll unpack some of them. So holistic admission, just for people who aren’t like as familiar with the term, essentially, they consider everything, right. But it also means they can do whatever they want. Right? So they post, you know, schools will post average test scores, they tend to post average GPA less and less only, because there’s so much variance across school, some schools are on five point scale, some are on four point scale, some do, they don’t do weighted, some do weighted, you know, all this stuff. So that matters. But then in addition to that, you know, the well, but then standardized test scores are standardized test scores, no matter where you went to school, and all this kind of stuff. And but now that, you know, schools have gone test optional, this holistic admissions is even more critical to understand. Right? So yes, schools will report, look, these are the kinds of students they’re in the Top X percent of their class, this is the median actr LSAT score that we accept this is the 25th and 75th percentile, to give you a sense of how competitive they are. However, they can do whatever they want. Okay, so if your grades are a little bit lower in this way, but you’re amazing in this other way, whether it’s extracurriculars or otherwise, that might help buffer against it. Now, if your grades are so low, you know, chances are, it’s going to be harder to overcome the other aspects are you going to be harder to pull it up right? Now, there are going to be so let’s say like, You got several B’s during your high school years, and now you’re applying to Stanford, but you’re just like a rock star researcher, you have several patents you I don’t know, solve global warming, whatever, I’m just throwing something out there, then it’s probably okay that you have bees, right? Because you’re so incredible. And you can overcome some of those great issues. There are also going to be other things where context really matters. So we know there’s a lot of research to show that students from lower socio economic backgrounds tend to have lower test scores, because they may be they don’t have the same access to prep, or whatever the case might be. And so schools might say, Yeah, you know, this person’s test scores are lower their AP scores, their AC T scores, etc. However, they, you know, they come from a background where they don’t have access to the same resources to the same amount of test prep or anything like that, right. And so the schools might say, Yeah, well, given their context are actually quite impressive. Imagine taking this kid, giving them the resources we have at Stanford, imagine all the stuff that they’re going to do, right. So that’s what holistic also means. It means like, if you have one blip, it’s not over. But also even if it’s, you know, even if you don’t have the sort of the traditional metrics, well, your context matters. And there’s a lot and this gets really complicated because by holistic it also means you know, they might consider your familial background, you know, how much means you had and all that kind of stuff. And it’s hard to it’s hard to create quantify all that kind of stuff? Well, how much weight does it carry that you’re the first one to go to college in your family? Or that you’re an immigrant? Or that you come from a lower socioeconomic background, or whatever your school didn’t have these resources and stuff like that. So they start getting into these subjective things. And subjective makes us uncomfortable, right? Because we would all love it. Right? We would all feel assured it assuming we’re high achieving, you know, if someone said to you, well, if you get a 1560, and you get, you know, an average of, you know, 4.7 on your AP exams, and you take minimum six of them, then you’re gonna get into Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, and you know, you’re like, okay, like, that’s what I got aim for. But when it’s like, well, I got that. And you mean, I’m still not guaranteed, or I got into this school, but not this school. We feel like it’s unfair, right? And so that’s why you have to build the type of extracurricular profile and communicate the right background in a way that maximizes your chances, given your context, no matter where you come from.
Kamila
Very true there. And I want to get a perspective, because your consultants, some of them are admissions officers, former admissions officers at these top schools, when they see an application, and they this is like holistic admissions, I guess, when they see an application? What are they looking for at these top schools? Like what is something they automatically want to see with these applicants? And what is something they will look at? And be like? Yeah, not so good. So can you give like a perspective on shopping, they see? And they’re like, oh, yeah, that’s what we want at our school, that’s who we want representing our school. And then others, like, ya know, their chances are decreasing. By that, like, I’m reading applications not looking so good. So what do they what do they not look for?
Dr. Shirag
Absolutely. And they’re, it’s almost like two sides of the same coin. In other words, what they look for, is directly opposite to what makes them sour towards your application. Okay? So, for example, things that are you know, that are always invoke, that will never go out of style. Number one, you know, act, so challenging yourself, academically, and extracurricular li are super key. Because, you know, if someone just went to a school with a lot of resources, and they just like, they just took whatever classes, they didn’t challenge themselves. That’s not good enough, because in college, they want to see you push yourself and challenge yourself. So academic challenge that’s, you know, based on your profile, and what your school offers really matters. Level of Achievement, of course matters, right? So challenge yourself and do well in in those challenging courses that really matters. You know, you get this question a lot of like, well, what’s better a B in an AP course, or an A in a regular class? It’s one of those like, you know, and then you have to make the, you know, the silly joke, well take the AP class and get an A da, you know, but but, but there’s some truth in that, like, challenge yourself and do well. But even if you’re not going to get a like, challenge yourself, I probably take the BMA AP course over the and the regular course, right? So it’s not just about protecting your GPA. So that stuff matters. They really like to see students who are intellectually curious, or they call it intellectual vitality, right? Where, like, You, you, you’re basically you’re a nerd about something about something like you don’t just like casually do stuff, you’re the person who, when you do something like you’re all in, you do it because you like it, you take it to the extreme in a good way. Right? So all of these different details matter when it comes to the college application process. Okay? So it’s not good enough to be like well, I like you know, you know, I want to stop you know, beach pollutions on the go on Saturdays and pick up trash. That’s not good enough, like, but like building the whole, like a network of people who do it doing the research, changing policy, obsessing over this stuff that really matters, right? Other things that really matter are a commitment to your community and you know, promoting diversity. Right? So are you just like living in your own bubble? Are you a well to do kid who just like, you know, goes to school lives in their fancy suburb, you know, does prestigious competitions and wins? Are you actually making a difference for people, not just for your immediate community, but for people who might have fewer resources than you? Is that linked to the stuff that really drives you the same stuff you’re intellectually curious about? Are you using it to actually help people to help other people have access to things they might not otherwise have access to? Right so let’s take that beach cleanup person the hula, you know, maybe there’s maybe for whatever reason there are certain members of the of their community who don’t have the same access to the beach, maybe public transportation doesn’t run from their neighborhood to the beach, maybe you share your setup, writer access program where you know, there are shuttles that take people from certain areas of your community to the beach so that everyone can enjoy it. It’s not just for a certain wealthy group of people or something like that, right? So these are the things that really, really matter, essentially, that you’re a high achiever, you care. And there’s a very strong demonstrated motivation behind it. Okay, that really matters. The and then what do they look look at? And they’re like, well, the opposite, right? Didn’t challenge yourself, you, you might have taken hard classes, but you’re just not that high of an achiever in school. You did extracurriculars? Because it seemed like, well, those you know, you you thought it seems like you did them because you thought you should. Because everyone else was doing it. There isn’t a clear drive behind it. You know, all of these different details, basically, they look for?
Kamila
And what about the well rounded kids? Like when they see a well rounded kid? Not particularly accomplished in anything but still wide range of interests? Do they kind of? Do they view it the same way? Or do they say like, Nah, there’s probably another applicant that’s better than this.
Dr. Shirag
It’s just not that exciting, right? So they’ll still if they’re super high achieving and scoring stuff, they still might have a chance, it’s just the odds are way lower, right? Because there’s nothing clearer to hang your hat on. And so they’re going to get another applicant who’s just as high achieving in school, and has done the other subs. Let me give you an example. Like, let’s say you wanted to buy the best bread in your neighborhood. Okay. And you you saw two stores next to each other. Okay. One of them. They focus on baking, you know, I don’t know, with wild like wild yeast, sour dough. And they you know, they focus on making these amazing croissants. And at the store window, there’s a beautiful display of seasonal pastries, and all this kind of stuff. And then there’s a shop next door that says like, big curry, plumber, laundromat. Maybe they make better bread. But chances are, if you knew nothing else, and you’re like, I want to buy the best loaf in town, which shop are you going to go to? Chances are, you’re going to go to the first shop, right? Kind of like that. So don’t try to be everything. Because chances are, you’re not going to do it as well, right? Like I do my work full time. I’m not also a chef. I’m not also this other thing and this other thing, right? So and by focusing, you’re not only able to, I mean, you’re gonna devote more time to achieve something at a higher level, you’re also going to be more likely to be known for something because there are fewer distractors.
Kamila
Yeah, that makes sense. And, and the thing with your passion, so it’s really, really hard. At the age when you’re entering high school, you’re what 14, about four, I think the average is 14, you’re entering high school, you’re 14. And you have no idea like, you can definitely say science is not my thing for sure. But other subjects you do relatively well. And you’re not sure what you want to do. Should you ever if and if you’re a high achieving student who’s aiming for these top schools, should you ever fake a passion, like realize that I need to show some sort of interest in something? Should you ever fake a passion, just for the college app, if you’re like, what, you really have no idea what you want to do.
Dr. Shirag
So that’s the thing, you can try to fake it, I guess as far as writing an essay, but again, if you don’t have the support for it, you’re not going to do a very good job. Like if you’re like, all I love is you know, you know, the beach ecosystem, and I love this stuff. I love this stuff. And then your activity section has like nothing about it doesn’t matter what you say, right? And passions, an interesting thing, you’ve used this word a few times. And I’d like to talk about, you know, passions and how those develop and stuff like this, right? I get a lot of students talk to me and parents asked me about can you help my kid find their passion? Or, you know, identify what it is and stuff like that. And I think sometimes, you know, people assume it’s this, you know, that story about like Isaac Newton was sitting under like the apple tree, and like, the Apple dropped on his head and he’s like, you know, Eureka, like gravity, you know, I just I just discovered it or whatever. It doesn’t work that way. You’re not just like watching TV one day and you’re like, finally I figured out what I want to devote my life to it just doesn’t work that way. Okay, I think and I think some people will have, you know, they’ll have an interest and they’re like, I don’t know if it’s my passion though or whatever. And they wait until they find their passion to do something. I don’t know. I don’t have a good idea yet. I don’t know my passion. You Once I figure it out, I’ll do it. That’s not how it works. You have to work hard at things that you’re interested in. And the passion follows. Right? You know, I can’t speak to your, you know, your personal story. But you know, I’m sure that you you’ve developed as a, you know, as a podcast host and interviewer, and you’ve developed more of a passion for it as you’ve gotten better at it, right? Oh, yeah, for sure. And that’s, that’s the case with everything in life. You know, and so when you start something new, you can expect to be great at it. But if you don’t do it, because you’re not great at it yet, or do you think like, oh, I just haven’t have found my passion, yet. You’re never gonna, you’re just gonna sort of be floating the whole time. So my advice to people is, like, try things that you’re really interested in. And, you know, the, what’s the worst that can, um, you try it, and you’re like that, I’m not interested in it. But if you’re gonna wait around until it like, quote, unquote, hits you, you’re not going to get very far. And that’s why again, going back to my point about an early start, well, you get to, you get to explore more things. And you’re able to, like, once you identify what you’re really enjoying, and you go deeper, you have more time to explore it. But if I start, you know, after, at the end of 11th grade, I want to do my passion project, can you help me find my passion, it’s gonna be really hard in four months, you know, for you to work on things enough to develop your passion, and then to turn that into a project and that you know, like, it’s just the clock’s ticking, you know, and you got to get on it.
Kamila
So with this finding your passion, again, you can’t expect a 14 year old to know what they want to do for the rest of their life. Would you recommend? I have two questions, actually, number one, would you recommend ninth grade to be the year because it is four years of high school, the first year ninth grade to be the year where you try out a bunch of stuff, and then perhaps halfway through ninth grade or at the end of ninth grade? Use? hone in on something? And then the rest of the years are developing for that? And then number two, actually, no, can you answer that? And then I’ll go into number two,
Dr. Shirag
yeah, happy to happy to answer it. So this is exactly related to the funnel analogy I brought up earlier. So you know, in the beginning, if you like, it’s totally fine in ninth grade to you know, you’re figuring out some of the areas you’re interested in to try a few things in there. See what you like more than others? What about it you like and tweak, etc? And then absolutely, you know, run with the stuff that you like more than others, you’re spot on?
Kamila
And then my second question is, in seventh grade, eighth grade, at least how it’s been for me, and I do, I do go to a grade school, I’ve always gone to grade school. So I have a bunch of resources. But in eighth grade, you don’t have it’s not like high school, there are no clubs, really, for the most part, you’re likely not going to get a big like internship to figure out if you genuinely like this. So when you’re in like eighth grade or your ninth grade, what can you do outside of school to help find something that you’re interested in? Because a lot of people find it through clubs, or their friends talk about it. They’re like, Oh, I’ll join, I’ll tag along and then they end up liking it. But when you’re in eighth grade, when you don’t, you truly don’t have access to that. What can you do to at least try to start finding a passion before you enter high school?
Dr. Shirag
So everyone’s interested in something. And it’s important to say like, these don’t have to be formal opportunities. Right? So like, I like asking students questions. Like, if you had nothing to do on a Saturday, what would you do? I promise not everyone’s going to answer the same way. Right? So someone might say, Well, I love like, I love going to the farmers market with my grandfather. Oh, what do you like about going to the farmers market with your grandfather? Well, I, we actually cook a lot together. And I love using like seasonal produce, and all that kind of stuff once a month we actually go to and he takes me to a nice restaurant where I learned about all this kind of stuff. Or they might answer I just really love under like developing relationships with farmers and, and learning sort of how they, you know how food is produced? Those are two different answers. Someone else might say, I just really love spending time with my grandfather, I just feel like this, you know, intergender, like intergenerational relationships are really, really important. And I just think like, it’s really cool to be able to spend that time with folks who might not be around as much as long, right? And so then that person might work on something where they’re developing, you know, activities in their area where grandparents and grandkids can do stuff to get right. So the answer to that question can take you down a million different directions. And so it’s not like eighth graders like yeah, maybe you don’t have maybe you’re not doing the Science Olympiad. Maybe you’re not doing you know, working with a university professor, maybe you’re not doing this, maybe you’re not but you’re doing something. Right. And there’s a reason you’re doing something right. The person Then who’s obsessed with, you know, coding apps and, you know, solving, I don’t know, solving some access issue in their community, you know, they’re going to be spending time on that. There’s somebody else who loves photography, and they’re like, I just don’t care about coding, you know? And so they’re some, everyone’s doing something, everyone’s interested in something. So how can you explore and hone your skills, so that when you do get to high school, you can have a faster start? Right? Maybe you take a photography class, maybe, you know, whatever the case may be, you go on some trips, and you, you know, you hone your photography skills, and then you basically, you know, ask people which photos they like, and all that kind of, or people liking my landscape work more, or my portrait work more all this kind of stuff, you know, so like, just figure that stuff out by trying it. So I’m not, I don’t, again, I don’t think that you just like wait until high school, when the activities are formal. And then that’s how, you know, we’re going to, we’re going to get started.
Kamila
And I want to segue into I guess, our last section, which would be what you specialize in medical school admissions. Now, specifically, still staying with passion for students who are thinking like, oh, you know, I broke my arm a couple years ago, and was just fantastic. And I really liked how the doctor did this. And I’m so interested, and I want to work in medicine or something, if they’re students like that, thinking about it, but they’re not sure. Are there any sort of internships, programs, clubs, something that you would recommend for those students who are specifically interested in medicine? Like, is there anything that you would tell them to do before they decide, okay, I want to, you know, hone in on medicine as my passion and then apply to BS MD programs and such.
Dr. Shirag
Yeah, I mean, there’s a there are a million ways to approach it and Bs MD programs are like a very particular area of focus, where, you know, you have to develop almost a pre med profile, while in high school. So what does that what does that even mean? Right? So you’d have to, it’s ideal to have research experiences, it’s ideal to have patient exposure experiences, where you’re actually involved in patient care in some way. Also, community service is a huge, huge thing, the you know, demonstrating that level of, you know, commitment to your community, all those things matter. And so, you know, when you’re focusing on developing a pre med profile, those are the areas you should explore. There might be a summer research program that you apply to, that’s a formal program at a university. But it doesn’t have to be, there are ways to get a research assistantship at a local college just informally, by contacting professors and networking with them and develop, you know, you might be involved in publications. In addition to that patient exposure experiences, there might be like, you know, like a junior EMT program, or something like that you might get involved in or you might be able to shadow your pediatrician. And then service experiences, maybe you are a member of a community that doesn’t access health care as much as they should. Maybe it’s due to language barriers, maybe there are cultural stigmas. So you work toward access, helping that community access care, right, maybe you’re part of the I don’t know, the Vietnamese, you know, community in Southern California or something like that. And you’re like, well, for X y&z reasons that I’ve explored, you know, folks aren’t accessing care as much. And so I’m going to develop these initiatives and make that happen. And you can, you know, and so on, and so forth are a million ways to approach it. Right? And, and so that’s how I would go about it to figure out again, Whom do you want to serve? And what problems do you want to solve? Because when you have no guiding Foundation, you’re just kind of floating, like people say, like, does this look good? Or does this look good? Well, I don’t know. Like, you know, if I, sometimes people say is it great? Is it a Good Idea to, you know, do this work in geriatrics and do research on Alzheimer’s? And if I ask you, well, what population do you want to serve? Well, I like working with kids with autism, well, then that’s a terrible idea for you to work with the elderly population focus on Alzheimer’s, because it doesn’t align with what you care about. Right? But for someone who does like that, it might be perfect. Or, you know, maybe the problem, you know, you want to solve for kids with autism is around, you know, sensory issues. And it’s not, you know, making sure to reduce, you know, mental health stigma or whatever. So, one program, or one initiative idea might be much better for you than another. So getting very clear on those questions should guide what you do. And whenever possible, try to align your experiences. So if you’re doing like cardiology research, but then your service work is with kids with autism, and then your patient exposure work is with an entirely different population. You might be committed to health care, but a little too diffuse right again, we get into the well rounded this problem So depth, you should always prioritize.
Kamila
So like BS MD, because I did interview someone who got into these Bs MD programs. And he was talking about how like difficult they were. So with specific BS MD programs, it’s it’s the same thing, right? You want to hone in, not just on medicine that is specific, but you need an interest.
Dr. Shirag
Yes. Oh, okay.
Kamila
But the same thing was well rounded applicants? Do they kind of frown upon you going over multiple areas? Like even if you achieved a lot of stuff with something related to kids and something related to maybe like, men have some sort of problem? And then like elders as well, if you did still achieve a lot? Does it still look bad? Like, if you did a one of those?
Dr. Shirag
No, no. So so there’s a difference between not or between looking bad, and not looking as good as it could write? In other words, so sometimes, is that I love the way you phrased the question. Because let’s say you did, do you have achievements in multiple areas? Okay, there are a few things that matter, the, you know, the relatedness of those experiences matters. But so too, does how much you achieved. So maybe you’re just a super duper star, and you’re just incredible at all of those things, you have two spikes or whatever, well, then maybe that’s maybe you’re just fine. It also will never look bad. It’s just that if you don’t focus, maybe your ceiling is lower. In other words, maybe your spike is shorter. And those are the questions we care to answer.
Kamila
How short is FICA shorter? That’s interesting there, okay. And now I want to go into actual, like medical school admissions. For high schoolers who are like, sure they want to go into medicine. And perhaps they don’t go into a BS MD program. They want to go to a ordinary university that specializes in multiple subjects. Yes. Does it matter where you go for undergraduate?
Dr. Shirag
does? It does it does so undergrad? So I get this question? I’ve, in fact, I’ve written a guide about this does undergrad prestige matter? For medical school admissions? Yeah, it does. It’s a brand name, right. So you know, if you if two students have the same grades, same level of achievement, all that kind of stuff, one went to Stanford woman to lesser known state school, then, you know, the student from Stanford, you know, might have a leg up just because of brand names, right? The same way, brand names matter, in, you know, and everything, like we have a certain quality we associate with them. Now, it’s not everything, right? So don’t think you’re if you’re out there listening to this, and you’re like, Well, my school is not as famous. But you know, I had to stay local for this reason, or for financial aid, or whatever the case might be. It’s not game over, I promise, I’ve helped a lot of students from less prestigious schools get into great medical schools. And so you really just have to think about what you’re going to achieve while there, get great grades, get a wonderful MCAT score, because then people are going to see okay, relative to your peers across every single school, how strong are you that matters? You know, what did you do with the opportunities afforded to you, maybe you had tremendous research achievements or patient exposure experiences, and so on. All of that matters. So not the end of the world. But yes, the assuming, you know, everything else is the same. Similar context, similar stats, etc. Yeah, undergrad prestige will always carry weight.
Kamila
And we were talking earlier about how some schools, we’re talking more selective schools do take into like circumstances into account. Yes, do medicals do the same thing.
Dr. Shirag
Of course, of course, in fact, the medical school application even has a disadvantaged prompt, like, do you consider yourself disadvantage? You know, explain. And you can interpret that however you want. So that’s one opportunity. They also you know, you’ll report your demographics, number of, you know, or you know, how much your parents make, all that kind of stuff. And also in your applications, you can talk about your personal statement, maybe the type of community you grew up in some of the challenges you face. Why that lead you to medicine, so, you don’t have to don’t leave it to them to guess your context. You should explain it to them when you can.
Kamila
Okay, and I want to go into I guess one last sub sub topic here is what do you do once you’re in college, and you of course, you’re sat on medicine and you’re like, Okay, for these traditionally, four years, I’m going to work to getting into medical school. I want to go over like the different components. Number one is MCAT. Can you explain what the MCAT is? I hear it all the time. I don’t understand. Is it like the sap of medical schools?
Dr. Shirag
Exactly. So it’s, it’s the Medical College Admission Test the MCAT MC 80. It’s essential. You’re absolutely right. It’s the SCT a CT equivalent of medical school. It’s long, it’s like around seven hours, it’s quite long, it’s quite challenging. And keep in mind, so as at att, you know, everybody takes no matter what tier school they’re looking for med school admissions is really, really hard. The acceptance rate for, you know, only about 40% of students get into at least one MD program, each cycle they apply. So it’s really challenging. And so it tests four areas, there’s essentially, bio biochem is one section. The next section is cars, which is like comprehension, reading comprehension. And then there is Chem phys, which is focused on chemistry and physics. And then there’s a psych, social psychology, sociology, behavioral sciences, things of that nature. And so you have to, you know, learn all these areas during undergrad and study for it on the MCAT. And then, you know, knowing how to apply that knowledge for MCAT style questions can be really hard. So that’s the MCAT, you usually take it, the earliest you take it is your summer after your second year of college. But many people take it after that. And there’s all the strategy around when to take it because there’s a rolling admissions process. So yeah, your GPA really matters. There’s a science GPA and an overall GPA, you want to behind both, you want your MCAT to be strong. As far as extracurriculars go, you want to have great shadowing experiences, which is like physician observation, great community service, great patient exposure, or clinical volunteering, and then research. Those are really the main pillars for extracurriculars. And then in addition to that, you have to write great essays, more of them than you even wrote for college. There’s another a casper test, which is a situational judgment test or interviews, in REC letters, there’s so much to cover, and I’ll share with you Camilla, a guide I’ve written it’s a comprehensive guide to basically what to do across all years of undergrad. And that that I think would be a great resource for folks to read.
Kamila
Yeah, I’ll definitely link if you could send it to me. And one thing I want to talk about with extracurriculars, we said in high school, that if you do something like over, I get a large range of subjects large range of interest, that’s okay, so long as you achieve like a you do really well on those you show that you can achieve a lot in medical school admissions, is it different, like you need to hone in on something more specific.
Dr. Shirag
So you have to demonstrate commitment to healthcare and to service. So you know, in high school, you have much more wiggle room, right, in terms of like, you know, it could be about history, or photography, or whatever the case might be, when it comes to med school missions you can achieve in these other places, but you also have to have a great medical background, how you pursue that and what your spike is, is different. Some person someone’s I’ve seen people who have five publications for research. And they have, you know, they’ve done great shadowing work, patient exposure work, and so on. Other people that aren’t there. They did, but have no publications, but they help pass amazing social well, like child social welfare policies. They work, you know, in Big Brothers, Big Sisters program, whatever the case might be. So a lot of people mistakenly believe that research is the number one thing, it’s not the number one thing you can actually develop a spike in any area within those four pillars. I said,
Kamila
Wait, and I want to move into I guess, one more part of admissions for medical schools essays? Yeah. Can you describe what are the essays like for medical school admissions? Are they the same as in high school? Like, what do they talk about? Do they want to get to know you as a person? Or are they more medical heavy, like, answer these questions, all you do in this situation?
Dr. Shirag
So so they do want to get to know you and your path to medicine? So there’s a 5300 character personal statement, which is about a page and a half. And that’s like, why do you want to go to medical school basically. activity section, which is a pretty big expanded resume. So folks apply in a college, you know, you have to fit the activity. It’s way longer than that. And so you talk about all your different extracurriculars. And then you have a secondary essays, which are basically school specific supplementals, and some of them are quite long, some are short. And so there’s a lot of writing to do. There’s also like, as far as what we’re doing to specific situation, there’s actually a different test for that it’s called Casper. Even some BS MD programs are requiring Casper now, these are like you’re presented with various video or text based scenarios. And it’s like, well, what would you do in this situation? And you have to type really fast to answer those questions. So So that’s what’s all involved. As far as writing goes.
Kamila
Do you think medical school admissions is more intense than regular undergraduate, assuming it’s both top schools, top schools in both cases?
Dr. Shirag
I think they’re, I think they’re similarly challenging. And I think they’re uniquely challenging with college, you know, because there are so many different majors and people want to do so many different things. You know, the types of students you’re competing with are like, perhaps more. There are more differences as far as what they’ve pursued with medical school, you got to hit certain, you know, you got to do certain activities and achieving them. But doing those things well is really, really, really hard. So I think they’re both very difficult to do. And it’s hard to answer I, I feel like people who are applying to top colleges will say that harder people applying to medical school probably say that’s harder. The one unique thing I should say about medical school is with college, usually you’re getting into, you know, somewhere. So it’s a question of where with medical school, it’s a question of if. So, from that standpoint, it’s probably more intense. And if you, if you get into a certain school that’s less strong on the college side, you could still become a doctor, if you don’t get into medical school, you’re not going to become a doctor. So I think the stakes in some ways are higher, but they’re both really uniquely challenging.
Kamila
And again, like way, early on, we were talking about how you know, 4% do get into these top colleges, but 96% don’t get in for medical school. Is it really like? Are there some people who will are truly passionate about medicine? But with each cycle of admissions, they just don’t get in? Yeah, there are many cases like they just fail.
Dr. Shirag
And yeah, absolutely. Again, so for MD programs, only about 40% getting anywhere. And the rest either go to deal programs, or they don’t get in anywhere. Right. So it’s really, really hard. And so, you know, when people ask, Why do you do what you do, it’s always like, well, you know, I really want to help people achieve their career goals. There are some students who are on the borderline who, you know, might have not gotten in had we not supported them well. And then there are other students who have this, you know, goal of getting top schools and we assist with that and everything in between. So it’s, um, it’s really hard and it can be really discouraging and a lot of because it’s so hard. A lot of the chatter around med school admissions tends to be very negative and pessimistic.
Kamila
I’ve seen so many videos with like, crying.
Dr. Shirag
It’s very hard. Yeah, it’s very hard.
Kamila
Okay. Well, thank you for coming on today. Dr. Shrug?
Dr. Shirag
This was a treat. Thank you for having me.
Kamila
Thank you. Are you Central Time? Pacific. You Pacific? Oh, yes. Have a good rest of your afternoon.
Dr. Shirag
Yeah. Thank you very much. Yeah, you’re on Euston. Have a good evening. And it’s this was so nice to chat with you.
Kamila
Thank you have a good one.
Dr. Shirag
All right. I for now.
Kamila
That concludes my interview with Dr. Schrock Amasian. I hope you enjoyed and I hope you subscribe, check out my blog at college reality check com for more college related content. Next week I’ll be releasing an interview with Isabel from NYU New York University. You do not want to miss that. I hope to see you then.