In this special episode, I interview Mark & Anna from the podcast College Admissions with Mark & Anna about how to show the admissions officer the person behind the college application.
Mark & Anna’s website: https://collegeadmissionspodcast.com/
Transcription
Kamila
Hey college kids. Today’s episode is very special is with Mark and Anna from college admissions with Mark and Anna. I’ll make sure to leave all their information down below. Make sure to check out my blog college reality check.com And my Instagram underscore a college get underscore, which is also down below. Hope you enjoy
Hey college kids, welcome back to my podcast who cares about college? In today’s episode, I’ll be interviewing Mark and Anna from the podcast, college admissions with Mark Anana. So if you guys could introduce yourselves. Sure, Mark, you can lead the way.
Mark
Okay. My name is Mark Hofer, I live out in Seattle, I’m assertive. With a lot of high school students in their families headed to college as well as graduate students. I was a high school and high school science teacher for about 10 years and have know that side of the equation from from the classroom and working with students and then also I’ve worked with as I’ve run a internship at an aerospace company while I was building air, spacecraft and rocket engines for about 10 years and 15 years. And then I also ran an internship and scholarship program for a private family foundation. So I know the scholarship equation part and the internship equation part of the puzzle, Anna,
Anna
ah, I don’t I have different experiences than Mark. So I am a first generation applicant for college. So my parents didn’t get to go to college. So it was the first person in my family to do so. I ended up attending Georgetown where I became an alumni admissions interviewer. And that’s kind of how I got into this space. Just really enjoy talking with teens, learning about their ambitions. And Mark and I just love offering advice and insight for families everywhere. I’m based out of New Jersey, opposite coast. Talking with people that you know, care about college admissions and education, and students that just have amazing dreams.
Kamila
So today’s I guess main topic is building a sort of character showing the admissions officer there is a person behind all the grades and the stats and extracurriculars. So one of the ways to do that is your essays, you know, your common app essay and your supplementals. So number one, how do you choose what you want to write about? Like, should you bring in something completely new aside of you that your extracurriculars your grades can’t show? Or should you build off of your extracurriculars and other parts of your application?
Anna
I think there’s different schools of thought about this, I’ll just offer mine, I honestly think that every piece of the admissions profile should kind of fit like a puzzle piece together. So they’re all different pieces that kind of fit together to help us understand who you are as, as an entire person. So ideally, I don’t encourage overlap, whether it’s like in terms of like the personal narrative. So ideally, I think admissions wants to see something that they’re not getting from your transcript they’re not getting from your resume. I think they’re always learning. We’re looking for context to help us understand like, why you made the choices you did, right, why you’re involved in the activities you’re in, or what’s really important to you. I think they’re looking to understand, okay, what kind of person am I inviting into my college community? So that’s, that’s kind of my take in terms of like, how to figure out what you might want to write.
Mark
Camila, I’m glad you have an eye on on this and answering the questions separately, because it’s fun to hear Anna’s we never get a chance to hear each other’s answers in some of these things.
Anna
And thank you for having us. And it uses
Mark
the puzzle analogy, I use the umbrella analogy, and it’s basically your application pieces are part of being under that umbrella. And where she said she doesn’t want overlap. I like dovetails, where things touch on each other and kind of support each other. When you’re writing the essay, I tell students, it doesn’t matter what your theme is what you want to write about the reason why is because the essay, your theme is just a vehicle to talk about your character, which happens to be what we’re talking about today. And that’s, that’s the thing I don’t I don’t think students understand that it can be the most benign and simple thing that they’re talking about. But they have to talk about how it influences who they are, how they think, how they think about other people in the world around them. If they do that. They’re talking about their character. And that’s what you know, college representatives tell us they want to hear From that essay,
Kamila
and in terms of, because within admissions officer, I think a lot of people know you want to be kind of unforgettable. You want them not, you don’t want to be like the other applicant, right? You want something about you to stand out and with your essays when you’re trying to create some sort of emotion. So because emotion is the easiest way to remember things, how do you like which should you choose? Should you choose to be really funny? Should you make your admissions officer cry? Do you want to be like really inspirational? How do you choose the emotion that you want to create within your essay?
Anna
That’s such an amazing question. I love that you brought up emotion because I think a lot of times, people don’t think about that right when it comes to writing an essay. And so one of my favorite prompts to use for kids generating ideas are like, when was the last time you felt something. And like that could be like, like sadness, it could be genuine happiness, it could be anger, whatever it is, right? Because in order for you to feel something, you have to care about something. And so I think, especially with the pandemic, it’s been really hard on you guys. Right, I definitely feel that. And so when it comes to being unforgettable, or memorable, I think there’s a few ways you could go about it. One is through emotion, right. And in terms of what emotion you want to convey, I think that’s really up to the student, I think Mark agrees with me, if you’re not funny, please don’t try to be funny, like sitting in a comedy club, and someone came on, and they were just awful. And you’re like, I’m stuck listening to this, and they’re just not good genuine tell them, they’re not good at humor. So similarly, I think admissions feels the same way. In terms of other emotions, like, there’s been an admission to shared with us, there’s been a lot of sad essays post pandemic, right. So if you have something positive to share, and it comes through gratitude, or something, that’s a great, you know, emotion to convey. It’s actually I think, one of the prompts for this year’s common app. So, you know, I think it’s, you don’t have to be horribly sad to have an effect on admissions. Right, you can swing them either way. But I think the big thing is, like, whatever story you’re telling, and I think we talked about this a lot, you want to show versus tell, like, help us feel what you were feeling like italics are a great friend, you use in your admissions essays, to let us know how you’re feeling or how you’re thinking. Um, but you know, whatever you’re trying to convey, I think admissions would be appreciative just that you gave them the opportunity to hold space for you, if that makes sense. So there’s not necessarily one right way or wrong way to do it. But we would say I would tell students like just be authentic, right? Because if I can read an essay, and I put it down, and I’m like, Oh, my gosh, like that made me feel something, then they already stand out from a lot of the applicants.
Mark
So I approached this, I’m a psychologist, and I tell students, your your goal is to establish empathy. If you have, if you’ve established empathy with the reader, you’ve won. And basically, like Anna said, if you are speaking from an authentic place, the reader will know that there’s just no way around it. If you’re talking about something that is important to you, they will hear that authenticity. And like she said, she says, When was the last time you felt something, I have a exercise where I tell students, okay, I want you to write one or two sentences very short. A time when you were the most happy time when you were the most sad a time when you were most frightened a time when you were inspired to do something. And basically identify those things that first come to your mind. Those are things that you hold very close and dear and to the surface. So why not write on those things and try to use them as a vehicle to talk about your character.
Kamila
And one more thing was emotions. I feel I think a lot of people try to make it like sad or something because a lot of people do have like tragic moments in their lives. Yeah, it is kind of hard to be funny. You don’t know. You can’t bond over some humor. You know, some people prefer this or that. But with like sadness is kind of universal. I guess there are certain things where you can definitely label a pet is a heartbreaking moment. Do you think that’s kind of overused? Do you think too many applicants use that, you know, sad story card in their essays?
Anna
I think it you have to remember that you’re not being read in a vacuum. And there’s going to be other students that are going to be right alongside us. So like, there’s a popular prompt, it’s like, what is the most difficult challenge you’ve ever come I think is a really popular prompt. And so I usually tell my students, like just remember to provide contacts, right? Because your whole application is not just being reviewed based on your grades and your scores. It’s also your parents, it’s your background. It’s your parents educational background. There’s so much stuff going on there. So in terms of telling a sad story for the sake of telling us had story. Know that there There’s always going to be other kids out there who really have it tough, right, like we experienced, I think a lot of us first world problems. But that’s not to diminish that you don’t have real problems, you know, you don’t have to have lost someone in a tragedy to have had a really difficult time with something, right. And so I think as long as you’re grounded in that, and you know, making sure that what you’re talking about really is a difficult situation and not like making them not out of a molehill, you know that you can still, you can still pull that off, or you can still write about that.
Mark
One thing I tell, I tell students remember that the admissions representatives and the readers are human beings too. And with that in mind, do you want to capture their attention and possibly tug at their heartstrings? If you tell something that is somewhat sad, turn it and I use this a lot in essays is tell them if you want to talk about something that is devastating, flip it and talk about how can you turn that into a positive? or what have you taken away from that situation that’s positive, because humans gravitate towards the negative, they kind of like the that kind of thing, but they actually crave the positive. So if you can end with them, reading it and saying, wow, this person is really made, you know, lemonade out of lemons, that is something that actually works to your advantage, as opposed to, if the person’s done reading it, and they go, like, you know, I have to take a minute, I can’t read another one, I’m gonna have to take the day off, because this was devastating. That’s not what you want. So that’s something I think students need to keep in mind. If they’re going to go with a negative subject, turn it into a positive and say what they’ve learned about themselves and the world around them.
Anna
I would also add, oh, I’m sorry, no, you go, you go, you go. Oh, I was gonna say, we don’t I don’t think admissions also ever expect you guys to do a 181. We, we we encourage the positivity. So it’s even okay to say that you’re working on it? And what are the steps in terms of working on it, whether it’s the first step of acceptance or something else in terms of whatever’s going on? So I don’t think admissions, they’re not looking for perfect people. Because at the end of the day, who likes the perfect person in a movie, right? No one does work. In progress,
Kamila
and with like writing your essays and telling your own story, something that’s truly meaningful to you, do you think that’s enough to show the admissions officer the kind of person you are, like, they know something about you the story that you’re telling, or this new passion? But are they going to be able to tell like, Oh, this is a person who I don’t know, really strives for the most in life, or this person is like really confident, or this person, I don’t know enjoys having a good time. They like the fun in life. They don’t want to be super dreary all the time and have those like deep conversations, they just want to enjoy the good parts of life. Do you think that’s enough? For an admissions officer to know the kind of person you are?
Mark
All dive into that one, the reason there are a couple of different things that the application does, and especially essays and, and and recommendations, there are things that are direct information, it’s told specifically, you know, I’m a leader, here are examples. And then there’s inferred information where you read between the lines, the last couple of years, I’ve been working really specifically on looking at a student’s application and say, what’s the inferred in this. And the idea being, you can say something about your character and something about how you approach the world without directly saying it. And like Anna said, you don’t want to overlap and continue to tell the same story over and over. But you can talk about things that are important to you, and the reader is going to infer certain information. So I think that’s one thing to keep in mind. And that
Anna
I also think, tone, a lot of students don’t realize this when they’re writing is they just just write but tone actually plays a big role in it. So like whether our students are working on their brag sheets, which is a horrible name, actually, to give that part of the process to like writing the essays and the reason I say it’s a terrible thing is like, some students really you will see their brag. And as Mark likes to say, we’re trying to achieve a humble swagger when it comes to talking about ourselves. And so like whether it’s that material or it’s your essay, be careful of tone because they can sense if you and this also happens in interviews too, because we used to interview applicants. They can tell if you are you know, conceited, or if you’re selfish, or you know, so you know a lot of students don’t realize that which is also a great idea to get other people to read it to. Just to check even if tone is correct
Kamila
and other Like, Oh, you want to go?
Mark
I often tell students, this is one thing I don’t, I don’t pull any punches when I read up, especially first drafts, and I will put right on it on a feedback. Do you know how pretentious this sounds? You are basically coming across as a conceited, self absorbed human being. And I’ll put that and often students when they read it again, after they’ve been told, they go like, Oh, my gosh, I have no idea. Okay, we’ve done our job.
Kamila
Okay, so, and with like, getting other people to read it? Do you guys think it’s worth it? Because there are a lot of essay editing organizations or services out there, and they’ll charge and I know of one, this girl that goes to Stanford and she started this herself and she goes to top school and like her other editors, which are her friends also go to other top schools. Do you guys think it’s like worth it to get someone like that to redress say, or do you think like, getting your teachers, your family and friends is enough?
Anna
I honestly, and this is gonna sound contradictory, because we’re an educational consulting. But honestly, I think your teachers and your family are can be great people to review. First of all, be resourceful. Right? I always say like, don’t spend money where you don’t need to spend money. But two, they really should know you. So they’ll be able to get a sense, like if they put down the essay, does this represent who you are, whether its tone, whether it’s a story. So I do think that they can be wonderful resources in terms of reviewing your essay. It also kind of depends on your background, and just put that out there because certain parents have different expectations are what an essay should be. And so that can very much lead a student astray. And so in that sense, sometimes it can be beneficial to have someone who has experience reading to help, if that makes sense.
Mark
Great. Yeah, there’s the students, I often tell students, you’re gonna write your college essay in your AP Lit class. And that’s fine, get the grade. But that’s an academic essay, that is not what we’re going to turn in for your application. And the reason why is I mean, being a classroom teacher, I know how hard teachers work, but they don’t meet with representatives, they don’t go to schools, they don’t stay right on top of what are the trends in what colleges want for essays. With that in mind, there are many valuable things just like Anna said, if you have somebody who is a grammarian, and can say this is actually not the way that I would construct that sentence that the reason why you’d want somebody to read your essay that actually has an idea of what colleges are looking for, is for the kind of make sure that the voice that you’re using is the one that’s appropriate for the application. And much like the subject matter that you’re talking about, are you really bringing up the character traits in the most powerful way you can. That’s where somebody who actually knows kind of the game can actually help your your essay become something more powerful than it would have been otherwise, just as an academic exercise.
Kamila
I want to go back to more, I guess, the essay topics we were discussing in the beginning. Because I’ll give a little background, there’s the very famous Costco essay, it got a girl into like five IVs, and a couple other top tier schools. And then there was a pizza essay, which got a girl into Yale. The obviously those kinds of they weren’t just talking about, you know, I love Costco. I love pizza. How do you make those kinds of essays work? Instead of doing the more generic topics?
Anna
I think happens, I would hope it happened organically for those students. I think what makes those those essays worked so well. And for example, when I’ve had students that get personal notes from admissions on their acceptance letters regarding their essays, it’s usually because it’s relatable, whatever story they’re telling is super relatable. So for example, I’m thinking you’re talking about the Papa John’s essay. I remember seeing admissions wrote a note on that, and they were pretty much like, I love pizza to like, oh, or, you know, for the Costco, I say everybody loves Costco. It’s like Wegmans. It’s like an adult Disneyland, right? So these are all things that are super relatable, but I think what’s really cool is that we learn kind of, at least with the Costco essay, like intellectual curiosity, how did they think like what’s going on through their mind? And I think that’s what makes those essays really stand out. So I like them because I call them like slice of life essays. Or I was trying to I was telling the student last night like if you’ve ever been to like a, I’m sure they have them outside of museums, but like those little balls so that they come in and they compress, and then they like, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. And so I kind of like to think about that like in essays right. So we start and we see oh, this is a little piece about Costco, right? She just walked in shopping in Costco. And then she expands, expands, expands and tells us all about her intellectual curiosity, these interests that she had. And then she brings it back again and grounds us again. And so I think it’s, it’s a mix of things like that, that make it like so relatable, impossible. And I do think like, we’re all human, you know, I think if you work on that relatability factor, you can create those essays.
Mark
I feel like such a stick in the mind because things I am I am, I discourage, very seldom do I allow a gimmick essay. And those are the Costco essays. Those are the Papa John’s essays. And the reason why is because I think a lot of things get lost in trying to convey your character. I do like a theme that is powerful and relatable. But that that can be a walk in the rain, everybody’s taken a walk in the rain, and it’s felt different to everyone. But if you organize that around developing your character statement, I think that can be as powerful if not more powerful than using a gimmick. And I get in a lot of trouble for this every once in a while i i see a student who, you know, has read the Papa John’s and they think, you know, I have to write a Costco essay. And I go, Hmm, not so much. And that that often gets me that, you know, side glance of, but that’s what the really good essays get people into, you know, really good schools, they all they all are that way. And I say, No, not so much.
Anna
And I’m sure you don’t have those types of essays.
Kamila
In a you were talking about like earlier with humor, if you’re not funny. Don’t try to be as at the same with this. Like, if you truly can’t find anything little, don’t write about it.
Anna
Yeah, yeah, I would say that I think like be authentic. Like a lot of things. I think like that. They do happen organically. So I had a student one of my favorite essays, she literally went through four different essays before she came on this idea. So sometimes that happens, and we were just talking like, I think I met up with her somewhere. And I was just like, that’s it applications are due in two weeks, we gotta get this go. And let’s, let’s have a real heart to heart here. And we’ve had those but so we talked about, like, you know, what are some quirks that you have? Or what are some things that you’re working through or you’re working on. And she was like talking about how she makes up random excuses not to hang out with her friends. And she’s like, I’ll tell them like, I need to reprogram my Roomba. Or I need to walk my cat. And I’m like, You do sound really ridiculous. I don’t blame your friends for like calling you out on that, right? And so what ended up transpiring was her essay did end up having a theme. It wasn’t something we came across, like while we were talking. But it naturally she found that theme in terms of having she’s talking about food. I’m from New Jersey, so we’re big on diners. And so it was like talking about like balancing like the tang of an orange with the saltiness and like indulgence of like disco fries at a diner with friends. And somehow it just worked. Like but it really I would say it comes from an organic place. Don’t force it, don’t force it. And of course, it’ll come if it’s gonna come it’ll come.
Kamila
And then on the flip side with more like generic topics, perhaps they aren’t like tragic, something like sports. I’m sure there are a lot of people who love their sport. How do you make an essay? Like if you truly love it? How do you make it stand out from the 1000s of other like sports essays that there will be
Mark
you don’t write it. Write about sports, in any any representative will tell you. It’s a very rare sports essay that actually captures their attention because they’ve read them all. I mean, they’ve seen everything every variation and themes. So be careful.
Anna
Yeah, I mean, sports music, I think those are two really common themes. I once had a student who put both in one essay. And ironically, it worked. Because it was about a conflict of identities. But rarely does it come across as memorable. Unless for example, like you really don’t have anything else to offer for like, for example, Penn State’s essay about like, oh, what would indicate your ability to succeed or threat and so I will say like a lot of students will write that sports essay for like something if they don’t have anything else for that. But in general for more competitive schools I would say is like, I feel bad for admissions. I’m sure their eyes gloss over a good amount of times when reading sports essays.
Kamila
So I think we’ve exhausted essays let’s go on to another part, which is recommendation letters. And he was talking about a brag sheet. So what is a brag sheet?
Anna
You talk about it mark. Okay, so my humble swagger
Mark
and actually an Anna said You know, I Why do we call them branch sheets and I like to call it a highlight reel document. Basically it’s the things the highlights thing you want that you feel represent you. And if you look at the if you use the puzzle analogy or the umbrella analogy, your blank sheet is basically allowing, and you have to remember, I’ve written hundreds of recommendations, as a teacher, as, as, you know, Director, those kinds of things. A brag sheet is not leading the witness, it’s basically bringing up, you have to remember you’re asking somebody to use a lot of their time to write you a recommendation, they want to do well by you. They want to support you in the best possible way. Do they remember everything about you? Do they remember all the things that you did in their class? No, they’d love to say they do, but they don’t. So what you’re doing is basically saying, These are the things that I’m most proud of, and that I want colleges to know and that are going to show up in other parts of my application. If you can support those with examples that you remember that I’ve that you’ve witnessed in me, that makes my application sound like a cohesive statement, that brag sheet basically talks about why you’re going to college, what’s important to you, things that you’ve done in schools that you’re proud of things that you want highlighted, and also other things that the teacher wouldn’t know about you because they’re outside that classroom, or outside of school, or have to do with your family. So those are the kinds of things that a brag sheet highlights, and it just allows a teacher to support the student by writing the most powerful recommendation they can. And I think that’s one thing break she’s selling like they’re leading the witness. But that’s not what it’s about.
Anna
And I would add, so like, because it is broadsheet season right now, that, you know, you want to help your recommenders and know that, you know, the letters of recommendation, they really are typically like two pages long, one and a half to two pages long. So if you submit a brag sheet, that’s about a page in length, I don’t know how your recommender is going to get to the rest of that, right easily, right without fluffing it a bit. So I was listening in on an admissions panel recently, and they were talking about how like, you know, the different pieces. And when it came to the letters of recommendation, they would say, like unremarkable if, for example, there wasn’t any detailed anecdotes that alluded to their character or challenges or context or any of that, right. And then at the same time, they also spoke about another student. And they had, I would say, for the teacher wrote a four page recommendation for the student, and provided context about what the student had gone through, and also the family background and things like that. And that was powerful. They said that was a big help in determining their admissions decision. So where are as I think, students because brag sheets, there’s usually short deadlines for those students who are like, Yeah, I’ll just write something, I’ll write a page on it. You’re not helping yourself, I would say those letters or brag sheets are helping. So if your personal narrative is what you’re writing about yourself to pitch yourself to admissions, the letters of recommendation, or what your teachers or counselor doing to also help you do the same. And as an admissions interviewer, we also had to write letters of recommendation for the kids we interviewed. So if you can help us and provide those detailed anecdotes, it would help us help you.
Kamila
And is so much to include about your like personality on the brag sheet. Is it too much to say like I think I’m this kind of person, rather than this kind of person? Is that too much to add?
Mark
Absolutely not the matter of fact, that’s one of the thing I do the classic name three of your your strongest character traits. And specifically give me examples of where those, those, those are the kinds of things the other thing. This last year, in speaking with representatives, I heard the word quirky more times than I’ve ever heard in my entire life. And the reason why is they said, this student got in because they were kind of quirky. And you kind of go like, well, what’s quirky. So in blank sheets, a good one will have hobbies, and skills, and interests. And these are the things that a teacher would probably never know. And it can be everything from cooking to, you know, learning how to juggle those kinds of things. And those are the things that stand out as quirky. Oh, that was the student who knows how to juggle six balls. Oh, yeah, I remember that. I remember reading that application. Next thing you know, you’ve been championed by your representative and you’re on your way. So those are little things that come in handy.
Kamila
Okay, thank you that I’m gonna write my teacher five page brag sheet. Okay, so another part of application which, honestly, probably a really big part that takes a lot of time for most students is extracurricular activities. So But you like biology and showing that you like it in your extracurricular activities? Doesn’t necessarily show the kind of person you are it just kind of shows you have a really nice interest in biology or, or no writing. So in your extracurricular activities, perhaps in the part where you elaborate on what you did in those activities, how do you showcase like how that ties into the kind of person you are shows? Like, if you’re, I don’t know, in biology, you’re interested in like helping people because you want to, I don’t know, cure some sort of disease in the future? How do you show that in your extracurricular activities?
Anna
I’m gonna let you handle it, Mark, because you’re the STEM Day
Mark
thing. And that’s actually one of the one of the interesting parts of and especially because I love working with students who are in STEM. A lot of times, the easiest way to do that is say, What have I learned from this activity, and it’s what have I ended, that can be what I’ve learned about myself, what I’ve learned about others, what I’ve learned about the world around me, and that can be a real clear, and concise sentence. And it can be as much as I found out that I need to listen more, and I’m working on that. That can be the difference. A teacher can use that and say, I think students think that recommendation has to be all glowing, and perfect and positive. Having been on the other side and read 1000s and 1000s. occasions, the recommendation letters that I remember the most are often from those who are ex military. And basically they say, the person does this exceptionally well, they do these things really well. However, they are working on these things and still need to develop this particular skills. The reason why is it says that work in progress ideas. So I think with the brag sheet, identify the things that you’ve learned from that activity, how it’s how it’s changed you and your your maturation as a person,
Kamila
and with extracurricular activities. I mean, I have not filled out the college application myself, but I know that just like resumes, you put your extracurricular activities, and then you do a little bit of like elaboration how long you did it for what your role was there? Do you include like what you learned from there? Or do you think that’s for another part of application?
Anna
I think you can put it there. I mean, there’s a limited amount of space there is by character counts. So I often encourage students first figure out the character count and and drafted somewhere else before you pop it into the common app. But there’s a few things that you can include that detail like talk about your responsibilities, or your I like to tell us to talk about your impact for your activities. So it’s either what you learned or what your impact is a lot of the time in terms of strengthening that section. And I would also say that activities again, that should happen organically too, and not be forced attending so and so summer campus XIV is not necessarily going to get you in, right. So you know, pick things that be resourceful pick things that you’re genuinely interested in. So, you know, sometimes students feel like, you know, and on, did I have to have community service? You know, I just, it wasn’t one of my priorities. And I’m like, it’s nice to care about others. But let’s see what else you did. And the truth is, I would say, it didn’t, it doesn’t necessarily keep students out if they don’t have it necessarily. It depends on the institutional priorities of the college. So as someone who attended a Jesuit Catholic school, yeah, service is pretty important for Georgetown. Right? But you could be looking at other colleges and universities, and maybe they’d appreciate your intellectual curiosity. And have you explored that even more. So it really depends on the school.
Mark
And Camilla, I have to let you know that for a brag sheet, and for activities, and for those kinds of things, what you’re doing with your podcast, and how long you’ve done, it is absolutely gold in an application. And because it’s authentic, you’re doing it because you want to do it because you’re passionate about it. Because you’re curious, you’ve done it for a long period of time, you can talk about the things that you’ve learned the things that you’re learning, about yourself and about others. It is the prime I mean, I can’t think of a more perfect example of curiosity and self driven learning than your podcast. So if you know people want to know what kind of things they can do, this is a great example.
Anna
Absolutely, I think it’s the fact that you took initiative to do this right. Some of my favorite activities from students isn’t necessarily related to their intellectual interests, but rather their personal growth. I think it’s awesome to be interested in people, right? We’re all people. So like the fact that you want to relate or bring further insights or you know, connect with others. Those are wonderful qualities to share with a college.
Mark
It’s service. I mean, it’s it’s, it’s a service to your community. It’s all of those things. It really is, as a really nice bow on top, I got to tell you,
Kamila
thank you. Thank you. And I want to talk about one more thing with extracurricular activities, which is, I guess what I’m doing is kind of service is not traditional, like, service, but a lot of colleges that I visited. And a lot of applicate, like non application students I’ve talked to have interviewed their, like, volunteer work. And to be honest, I don’t like what’s your work like the traditional one. But it seems to be growing more and more as like, they want to see like, oh, we want nice and caring people to come to a university, right? We want people that are going to make an impact to their community. So do you guys see volunteer work or just service in general, as sort of essential now for a college application? And this is more like, top tier admissions, I guess, the ones that are more picky about applications, I would
Anna
say yes. And now, I don’t believe that, you know, volunteering at the library does much for an applicant, unless you plan on being a library in one day. What I do think is meaningful is I think people do genuinely care about others. And so I would recommend that students look at activities that enabled them to make a positive impact in a way that they enjoy. Right? So for example, if you enjoy talking to people, and sharing insight, and experiences and, you know, relating with people, that should count as service, right, yeah, it’s not a soup kitchen. So that’s a different kind of service. But, you know, I think students can provide service in their own unique ways. And so you know, they should kind of lead with that, because admissions isn’t stupid, they can read through something authentic or not genuine.
Mark
students think that they, they can pull something over the pull the wool over the eyes of Representatives, and they don’t realize this is not their first rodeo. They’ve read so many of these applications. And they see the person who, Oh, I did the Thanksgiving drive for two hours for this last year. And all of those kinds of service things that are just tack on because they think it’ll look good on an application. They’re not fooling anyone, I’ll just let them know. However, and I don’t mean to, to go back to this, but they like to see things that have been long, ongoing. Everybody has their own way of communicating and serving their community, and dirt, and they have their own skill set that they bring to the table. For example, you’ve been doing this podcast before high school, that is an ongoing thing. It’s not something that you decided in the second semester of your junior year to tack on to your application. It’s something that shows something that you enjoy, and your influence on 1000s of people. So I think your time and return on investment is extraordinary. And you can speak specifically to that. Can you speak specifically about how the two hours of Thanksgiving food drive directly influenced your community and yourself and your growth? I don’t think so. And that authenticity that Anna talked about, that is the piece and your representative reading your application, they smell that authenticity, a mile away. If you can’t, you can’t fake it.
Kamila
And another, like last, I guess, portion of application, which is not something too common. And something that I’ve personally like never talked about with any of my interviews is actual interviews, like college interviews. So when a college asks to do an interview with you, are they more interested in you? Or are they like, uncertain of you? So they need that interview to just check to make sure this applicant is okay. Like why do they do those interviews?
Anna
So, I would say that most and so first of all, majority of colleges don’t interview. So let me throw that out there. The second thing I would say is like for colleges that have it part of the process for the elite for some of the elite schools, it’s required. And so as long as they have built out their network, and they’re able to accommodate that, then it’s just required, it’s another chance to get to know you, and have someone from their own community because it’s usually alumni or students, or sometimes it’s admissions to see if you’d be a good fit for their school. The second thing is, other colleges will offer it as a courtesy. So if you would voluntarily like to get to know us and learn more about our school that’s demonstrated interest. And so that’s also a great thing. Again, only take advantage of that if you are genuinely interested though, because they can really snip with you’re just doing it and going through the motions. But I think at the end of the day, it comes down to fit but Mark, you can elaborate on that.
Mark
Well and and and I have both done interviews for our for our universities that we’ve graduated from and the thing is, in 99% of the cases I think most of the time Time, it is merely identifying that the person on the application is the person I’m talking to, and are, do they look, you can look incredible on paper, and not so great on an interview. So it’s really important. I think that students realize it’s not the break all don’t get stressed about it. It’s merely having an adult conversation with somebody who’s interested in their university and students who are going to come to a university. So I think they, they blow it way out of proportion of how valuable it is. They do is treated as a has a conversation with somebody who’s probably pretty interesting.
Anna
Yeah, like, I remember when I was being trained to be an interviewer, they said, it is not in terms of how much it counts, if you’re in already you’re in. So that interview is not going to matter. It matters more for kids that are on the border. So if admissions is on the border, for that applicant, they might go back and read the interview notes to see like, Hey, would they be a good fit? But in most cases, if you’re out, you’re out if you’re in you’re in
Kamila
church, and now that you guys have interviewed definitely have to talk about advice for interview. So when you guys are interviewing, what do you talk about? Like, what do you ask the student?
Anna
We got, we got to
Mark
actually actually tell any student who does an interview, showing up on time is absolutely paramount.
Anna
Yes, I would agree. I think respect is really important. So whether it’s showing up our time, or you can even call us and tell us you’re running late, right? I had a student who came in, he was like, I’m so sorry. You know, I have to take this call. My grandfather just died. I’m planning the funeral. And I was like, Oh, my goodness, you could have totally just emailed me and had reschedule, we are human, I would have been more than happy to reschedule. So I think just like treating us just like as normal people having respect, right? Don’t again, don’t try to be funny, if you’re not funny. I’ve had students bus jokes that didn’t land so well, in terms of appropriate level. So like, you know, be yourself. But we also understand that this might be your first interview, and it’s okay to be a bit nervous. And you know, know that we are also actually trying to champion for you. So as long as you don’t come off as arrogant or conceited, we’re usually in your corner as well.
Mark
It depends on the amount of information that a university provides any. Some, some universities will let you read certain parts of the application, some more than others. So usually, I love asking, I find those things that most applicants have bring to the table that are quirky, that I find interesting that I want to find out about and whether they, they can describe how that has influenced who they are, and and their character as well. And that way, it just puts a check by the box, in that, you know, it’s it’s something that was true on the application and that this student brings to the university.
Anna
Yeah, I will say detailed anecdotes, I’m always be able to answer the why ask question, why do you want to attend this university? And make sure that your answer is that no one else could give the answer you gave. So make sure you’ve done your research on the school. But other than that, we’re really just trying to get to know the students. So I just tell students, like, just be yourself. There’s nothing that’s really going to throw you a curveball if there is because I was one of those interviewers, then just say, Hey, can I have like a few seconds to collect my thoughts? And believe it or not, I really appreciate that. I appreciate that you’re taking time to thoughtfully think through your response, right. So don’t feel like you have to fire out the like, what comes to mind right away.
Kamila
And I saw your message do you have to leave now?
Anna
Yes, I have to hop off. But it was such a pleasure, you and Mark and continue to talk.
Kamila
Okay, thank you very much.
Anna
You’re welcome. Bye, guys. Okay, so
Kamila
I want to talk about one more thing with interviews, which is same as an essays. Should you bring up your accomplishments and your extracurriculars? Or do you want to, again, show your interviewee, your interviewer, a different side of you?
Mark
Well, that, here’s one of the things you there are things that are in the application that the interviewer might know about you. But they may not some, some schools don’t provide it, or they provide very little information for the interviewer. So when they are speaking with with the applicant or the candidate, they basically might be asking things that are on the application, but they may be asking things that they didn’t know you put on the application. So it’s completely fine to talk about those things that are important. The things that you feel are most representative of who you are and that you would bring up in a normal conversation with somebody you’ve met for the first time. Don’t think that they already know it because it was on the application because the inner A viewer might not even ever read that.
Kamila
And a couple more things with interviews just like simple things. Where do these interviews usually take place when it’s not? COVID? What do you wear to these interviews? If it’s like at a coffee shop? Is it okay to order? Or should you just not order anything? Like, what is proper etiquette for these interviews?
Mark
So it’s all over the board. And I love talking to students about some of the things that I’ve heard different interviewers and how they approach it. The longest interview I’ve ever heard was three and a half hours where some the interviewer took them out on their boat, which I can’t even get my head around how many things that are wrong with that. But they took the interviewee out on a boat, they met him at the Yacht Club, took them out on the boat for three and a half hours and talk to him they did the shortest interview I’ve ever heard is about 30 seconds. And actually, the interviewer was they weren’t in a rush, it’s just that that’s how much time they plan for this is how long I’m going to talk to the student. And the person got into the University. So it wasn’t that they were kind of put off, or that they thought it was a negative. That’s just how much time that they wanted to spend with the student. Okay, great fan. And off they went. So those are the extremes. So students shouldn’t think if the interview only went 10 minutes, does that mean it was horrible? No, probably not. It’s just timing. That’s all that they should shouldn’t read more into it than others. The other thing is most of the time, I think 90% of interviews now happen at either Starbucks or another coffee shop. That’s the real common place. When I have students, when they find out if they’re contacted by the person who’s going to do the interview, ask them? How will I recognize you? What will you be wearing, use that as a cue to What should I wear the level of if the person says, you know, I’ll be dressed in the business suit. And most of the time, when you ask an interviewer that quite they’ll say, they’ll actually tell you, you know, please don’t dress up, this is not you know, or, you know, where whatever you let or whatever you’re comfortable in, the thing that I tell most students is if you are going to go do an interview, just, it’s business casual, we’re crisp and clean. And what I mean by crisp and clean, if you’re coming from someplace, if you’re coming from school and practice or something, make sure that the clothes that you’re wearing to the interview are crisp and clean. You can’t go wrong with that.
Kamila
And I’ve like talked to my dad, about, you know, he works. So he’s done like, you know, business lunches and stuff. And he’s in he always told me like, we do business lunch or like your boss asks you out, don’t like get a bunch of food and just start like eating like, you can order food but don’t like be constantly eating, pay attention to the person or just try not to take your food too much. Is it the same with this? Like, if you go to a coffee coffee shop, she’s just is it best to not order anything? Or like, how much should you? What is the proper etiquette for these interviews? Like what you what should you do? What should you not do in terms of your behavior and your actions?
Mark
Absolutely, that’s a good question. And usually what I tell students is whatever you’re comfortable with, and a lot of times the interviewer will set the tone. i i And if they if they if you’re at a coffee shop, and they say is there something that I can get for you? Fine, go ahead and let them or tell them no, I’m I’m good, thank you, or glass of water or whatever. Whatever you’re going to be comfortable with usually interviews there. Very seldom, we’re gonna sit down and eat, but I’m with you. It’s hard to eat and also focus on a conversation as well. So you have to do what you’re comfortable with. I wouldn’t be you know, shoveling food at the same time trying to have a an adult conversation, as we said.
Kamila
Okay, so I think we’ve done no, this.
Mark
I don’t know of the I’ve heard stories from other people who give interviews and things to throw an interview he off their game, they’ll do things like less than what they would like to drink, and then bring them something different. Just to see what kind of reaction will the student will the person who’s being interviewed? Will they say, Oh, this isn’t what I drank? Or will they just drink it no matter what, and not saying anything? And a lot of times they’ll say, Okay, I just have to know why you didn’t say anything about bringing the wrong drink, and have a conversation just to find out what what kind of how does this How does an interviewer or an applicant? What’s a reaction to adversity in the simple form?
Kamila
Oh, what should you do when that happens?
Mark
Well, everybody has their own way. I asked them, oh, is this my drink? Or is this is this? This isn’t actually what I ordered. Did they make except with somebody else. Because that’s, I mean, that’s what you want to make sure that you’re not drinking somebody else’s drink.
Kamila
And you don’t want to sound like you’re blaming the interviewer. Exactly. So I think we’ve done a pretty thorough job of, you know, creating a person behind the application coming off as like an actual relatable person. And one more thing I just want to discuss before we wrap up here is you’ve been in this field for a long time, and so as Anna, so over the years, you know, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, how does admissions compare now? Is it harder? Are the expectations greater for students? Like do we have to do more now than applicants did 2025 years ago?
Mark
Oh, yeah. I mean, the the admissions process has changed dramatically in just the last five years, it’s much more competitive, the level of applicants is much higher. So it is honestly those things that separate you from somebody else who brings the same extraordinary GPA, and extracurriculars. And how can you show that a, you’re not only college ready, but you’re ready to go to that specific college? How do you know why you’re going to college and what you want to study? And does that college represent the best opportunity for you? And can you communicate that effectively, the person who provide that Arella puzzle that shows not only do I want to go to your school, your school provides all of the things that I really want to study and do in the next four years. If you can do that, effectively. That’s how you get into colleges now.
Kamila
And I saw this, I was watching this one video, and it was about a girl she was saying, the extracurriculars that she did that got her into a top school. And one of them was she started this sort of club organization. And then I was scrolling through the comments on that video. And one comment was like, Yeah, it’s really impressive to start an organization or a club now. But maybe in like, a few years, like, imagine our children down the road that will become the norm for them to do that. So is that what you think it will be like? Like, in the future, what we consider to be really extraordinary accomplishments will kind of become necessary if you even want to be considered?
Mark
You mean, is the bar going up? So high? As that it? Yeah. No, I don’t think so. I think it’s the student who provides evidence that they have intentionally made choices, and they make good choices about not only their academics, but the choices that they make about what they do outside of the school, as well. And do they make intentional choices and reflect on why they make those choices? So those are the students that I think we’re raising the bar on maturity, more than we are raising the bar on stuff. So we’re asking students, we’re asking you to grow up pretty early, and say, Okay, what’s what’s most important to me and why. And I think that’s the bar that is really ratcheting up, and the maturity and the humble swagger, I know I’ve got a new game. But I know I have a lot to learn. And I’m ready to learn from everybody else. And every way I can, knowing that, and being able to communicate that effectively, I think that’s the thing that is really going to be the tell, telltale sign for good applications. COMM going forward.
Kamila
And you mentioned how there are much more applicants nowadays than there were then. And also there are, I guess, more resources now than there were then. So for less privileged applicants, those who don’t, you know, have the money to afford the tutors and the prep and such like that. They may be more aware of the process. But the thing is, is really like there are a lot of applicants, as you said, Do you see it becoming harder for those less privileged applicants and perhaps their low income as well to stand out in the process? Like do you think it’s going to become only harder for them or easier for them?
Mark
Yes, and no. The reason why is their your podcast, and my podcast. These are all free resources. Khan Academy free resource, there’s eight practice eight full length practice LSAT tests, there, all you have to do is make it a priority, and sit down and do the time. I 90. I give a lot of public presentations that are free. And it covers many of the things that I work with, with individual students when I work with them and their families. So there are many opportunities available. I think the biggest thing is access to information. If a student doesn’t know that those free resources are out there, or they haven’t taken the time to look for them. That’s when if you don’t use some of those resources says you are at a severe disadvantage and claim this entire college admissions circus so that I agree with you. While you are at a disadvantage if you are underserved to access, there are many opportunities if you look for them.
Kamila
Thank you so much for coming today. This is a topic that I’m very very interested in now. So you guys have done a great job in covering it. My pleasure.
Mark
Thank you so much for having us.
Kamila
Thank you have a good one. Have a good rest of your day. That wraps up my interview with Mark and Anna I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you did, make sure to subscribe and check out my website college reality check.com And my Instagram underscore a college get underscore. As I said before all of market enters information is down below. Hope to see you in the next one.Transcribed by https://otter.ai